在古希腊人出现之前，希腊是否曾经有过一个古老的民族居住？-pg电子麻将胡了

ioannis kokkinidis
per the ancient greek authors greece was inhabited by pelasgians. nowadays it is more thought that greek-speakers immigrated to greece in the bronze age and fused with the prehellenic population to form the greek nation. the pelasgians and the rest of the tribes there spoke a series of languages that was not indoeuropean, not semitic, not belonging to known language group as is for the most part undeciphered.

根据古希腊作家的说法，希腊的居民是佩拉斯吉人。如今，人们普遍认为希腊语系的居民在青铜时代移民到希腊，并与前希腊人群融合，形成了希腊民族。佩拉斯吉人和那里的其他部落讲了一系列不属于印欧语系、不属于闪米特语系，也不属于已知语言群体的语言，这些语言大部分仍未被破译。

in the 1990s a theory was proposed that has been accepted that minoan, eteocypriot, pelasgian as attested in the lemnian steles, etruscan (per herodotus they did immigrated to italy from asia minor) and several other minor languages belong to a putative aegean language group. note: even in the case of etruscan which is best attested and can be read, full decipherement is proving problematic.

20世纪90年代，人们提出了一种理论，认为米诺斯语、埃特塞浦路斯语、佩拉斯语（在利姆尼亚石碑上得到了证实）、伊特鲁里亚语（根据希罗多德的说法，他们确实是从小亚细亚半岛移民到意大利的）和其他几种小语种属于一个假定的爱琴海语系。注意：即使在伊特鲁里亚人的情况下，这是最好的证明，可以阅读，完全破译证明是有问题的。

culturally women had a more powerful position than in historical greek culture, though to call any of the prehellenic culture a gynaecocracy is nowadays considered a bit of a stretch. some of the prehellenic cultures survived in the first millenium bc, the eteocretans and eteocypriots, the pelasgians of mt athos and lemnos, but while there are inscxtions and some outside descxtions, we do not really have any text to tell their tale from their pov. archaeological digs do not show something fundamentally different from their greek neighbors.

在文化上，女性的地位比历史上的希腊文化更强大，尽管将任何前希腊文化称为妇科文化在今天被认为有点牵强。一些前希腊文化在公元前一千年幸存了下来，如埃特奥克里特人和埃特塞普里特人，阿陀斯山和利姆诺斯山的佩拉斯吉人，但是尽管有铭文和一些外部描述，，我们实际上没有任何文本可以从他们的角度讲述他们的故事。考古发掘并没有显示出他们与希腊邻居有什么本质上的不同。

bob dewitt
there is no generally accepted scientific evidence that the ancient greeks originated in troy, however the primary group of people that lived in what later became known as greece were the mycenaeans who mostly occupied the peloponnesus, although there were settlements on the mainland as well.

目前没有广泛接受的科学证据表明古希腊人起源于特洛伊，然而，生活在后来被称为希腊的地方的主要人群是迈锡尼人，他们主要居住在伯罗奔尼撒半岛，尽管在大陆上也有定居点。

arthur john
with all the rather well written responses from many rather keen students of early greece, is there one of you whom might say a few words about the albanian's ancestors.

许多热衷于早期希腊研究的学者都给出了相当出色的回答，你们当中有谁能谈谈阿尔巴尼亚人的祖先吗？

peter herz
the ancient greeks spoke of the pelasgians being there before them, and there seems to be a non-indo-european substrate in ancient greek dealing with things that are strictly mediterranean and/or dealing with state organization.

古希腊人提到佩拉斯吉人在他们之前就已经存在，并且在古希腊语中似乎存在一个非印欧语系的底层语言，这与一些严格属于地中海文化的事物和/或与国家组织有关。

chris barriere
yes, the greeks lived in greece for thousands of years before interacting with boat builders. evidence in some remote areas indicates a cultural continuity stretching back to the late pleistocene. nomadic hunter gatherers began to settle down and practice rudimentary agriculture as early as 10,000 bc. the mainland of greece has an equal amount of ancient sites, megaliths, and cave men bodies as any other place. the real question is who built some of the cities in greece, because some are very, very old; much older than ancient greece or persia.

是的，希腊人在与造船者接触之前，已经在希腊生活了数千年。一些偏远地区的证据表明，文化的连续性可以追溯到晚更新世。早在公元前10,000年，游牧狩猎采集者就开始定居并进行初步的农业活动。希腊大陆上拥有与其他地方一样多的古代遗址、巨石和穴居遗骸。真正的问题是谁建造了希腊的一些城市，因为有些城市非常非常古老；比古希腊或波斯古老得多。

samuel lee
yes. at least some of them were called pelasgians, & that name appears in greek traditions of the mythical & heroic period. certain greek place names & other words, for example those ending in “-nth-” (like korinthos (corinth), tiryns (genitive tirynthos), & akanthos), are thought to have been derived from the language of the pre-hellenic population. also the original inhabitants of crete (today called the minoans, from the name of the legendary king minos, who ruled in the cretan city of knossos, one of the major centers of minoan culture) spoke a non-greek language, written in the linear a scxt, which has not yet been deciphered (although linear b, which was derived from linear a, has been deciphered, which is how we know that the mycenaeans spoke an early form of greek). the minoan language may have been semitic, since the people known to the ancient greeks as the eteocretans spoke a semitic language.

是的，至少有一些人被称为佩拉斯吉人，这个名字出现在希腊神话和英雄时代的传统中。一些希腊地名和其他词汇，例如以“-nth-”结尾的词（如科林斯（korinthos）、提林斯（tiryns，属格为tirynthos）和阿坎索斯（akanthos）），被认为源自前希腊人群体的语言。此外，克里特岛的原住民（今天被称为米诺斯人，以传说中的米诺斯国王的名字命名，他统治着克里特岛城市克诺索斯，克诺索斯是米诺斯文化的主要中心之一）讲的是一种非希腊语言，用线性文字 a 书写，这种文字尚未被破译（尽管从线性文字 a 衍生而来的线性文字 b 已被破译，这就是我们知道迈锡尼人讲的是希腊语的早期形式）。米诺斯语可能属于闪米特语，因为古希腊人所称的伊特奥克里特人讲的是一种闪米特语。

april miller
the first inhabitants of greece were the prehistoric peoples who settled in the region during the neolithic period (circa 7000–3200 bce). these were diverse cultures with varying levels of technological advancement, such as the cycladic, minoan, and mycenaean civilizations.

希腊的第一批居民是史前民族，他们在新石器时代（公元前7000年左右至公元前3200年）定居于该地区。这些文化多样，具有不同水平的技术进步，包括如基克拉迪文明、米诺斯文明和迈锡尼文明。

the greeks, as we commonly recognize them, emerged during the bronze age. the earliest recognized greek civilization is the minoan civilization, which flourished on the island of crete around 2000 bce. the mycenaeans, another early greek civilization, emerged on the mainland around 1600 bce. these were the precursors to what we consider classical greek culture, which emerged around the 8th century bce with the development of city-states like athens and sparta.

我们通常所认知的希腊人是在青铜时代出现的。最早被认知的希腊文明是米诺斯文明，该文明于公元前 2000 年左右在克里特岛上蓬勃发展。另一个早期希腊文明是迈锡尼文明，约公元前1600年在希腊大陆上兴起。这些文明是我们所认为的古典希腊文化的前身，古典希腊文化大约在公元前8世纪随着雅典和斯巴达等城邦的发展而形成。

george alparos
you’re quite confused there.
how would you call the people inhabiting greece before the supposedly “greeks” came to inhabit it? your question doesn't make any sense.
clearly what you ask rests on some nonsense theories about some non-existent indoeuropean people that spoke some non-existent indoeuropean language and supposedly some of these ghost people inhabited greece kicking out its former habitats.

你显然有些混淆。
你会如何称呼那些在所谓“希腊人”来到之前居住在希腊的人？你的问题没有任何意义。
显然，你的问题建立在一些关于不存在的印度-欧洲人及其所说的不存在的印度-欧洲语言的荒谬理论之上，且这些所谓的幽灵人居住在希腊，驱逐了当地的居民。

however, truth is that there hasn't been single evidence of their existence whatsoever, so this ie theory collapsed in its own stupidity. to date, some insist on writing about the ghost indoeuropeans in wikipedia and the like only to embarrass themselves.
the fact is that not a single ancient author doubted the indigenity of the greek people and there hasn't been a single reference of any other people come settling in greece at any time in ancient history.

然而，事实是，至今没有任何证据证明他们的存在，因此这个印度-欧洲人理论在其愚蠢中崩溃了。至今仍有人坚持在维基百科等地方写关于这些幽灵印度-欧洲人的内容，真是让人感到羞愧。
事实上，没有任何古代作者质疑希腊民族的本土性，也没有任何文献提到在古代历史中有其他民族在希腊定居的情况。

mike white
i think it is reasonable to consider all people who lived in greece peaceably, and were accepted, for at least a couple of generations, as being greeks. just as modern people who may have migrated there consider themselves rightly as greeks.

我认为，考虑到所有在希腊和平生活并被接受了几代人的人，认为他们是希腊人是合理的。就像现代人可能迁移到那里，理所当然地认为自己是希腊人一样。

when under frisian domination, those frisians who lived in greece likely thought of themselves as greeks. the arcadians were greeks, as were the dorians after being there a while. the phoenicians who founded thebes were in time greeks, as were the cretans and phrygians, those of the cyclades, and ionia.

在弗里斯兰人统治期间，那些生活在希腊的弗里西亚人可能也认为自己是希腊人。阿卡迪亚人是希腊人，多利安人在希腊居住了一段时间后也成了希腊人。创立底比斯的腓尼基人最终也是希腊人，克里特人、弗里吉亚人、基克拉泽斯群岛的人和伊奥尼亚人也是如此。

the same can be said for the cyclopes and titans who built the megalithic structures of greece.
when i read homer with respect and admiration, i feel myself a little bit greek. as we all should, for the greeks stood sentry and protected the eastern gateway of europe for millennias. they hold a tradition of being hospitable warriors and noble philosophers.

对于建造希腊巨石结构的独眼巨人和泰坦们，也可以这样说。
当我怀着尊重和钦佩阅读荷马时，我感觉自己也有一点希腊人的身份。我们所有人都应该如此，因为希腊人守卫并保护了欧洲的东部门户长达数千年。他们有着热情好客的战士和高尚的哲学家的传统。

niko vasileas
legends state there was a pre-greek people called the pelasgians πελασγοι, but this term seams rather in precise as it could mean any pre-greek inhabitant of greece, or the ancestors of the greeks. we know greece has been inhabited since the stone age, and that cultures developed on the mainland and islands. some of their place names (korinthos, zakynthos, parnassos) survive in greece today, as well as vocabulary like thalassa (sea).

传说中有一个被称为佩拉斯吉人（πελασγοι）的前希腊民族，但这个术语似乎不够精确，因为它可能指任何前希腊时期居住在希腊的居民，或是希腊人的祖先。我们知道希腊自石器时代以来就有人居住，并且在大陆和岛屿上发展出了一些文化。一些地名（如科林斯、扎金索斯和帕尔纳索斯）在今天的希腊仍然存在，此外还有一些词汇，比如“thalassa”（海）。

homer and other writers spoke of "etocdeatans" and "etocypriotes" who lived on these islands before the greeks, and we know a people (perhaps related to the etruscans ) lived on lemnos. the proto-greek speakers entered into greece and in the northern mainland (across epiros, thessalia and parts of macedonia) the earliest greek dialects formed. these people would colonize the rest of what is now greece, and absorb these earlier peoples (most famously taking crete when the minoans entered into crisis) and this mixtures of earlier people and indo-european tribes would be the ethnogenesis of the greeks.

荷马和其他作家提到过“埃托克德人”（etocdeatans）和“埃托基普里人”（etocypriotes），他们在希腊人之前就居住在这些岛屿上，而我们知道有一个民族（可能与伊特鲁里亚人有关）曾生活在莱姆诺斯岛。原始希腊语的说话者进入希腊，在北部大陆（跨越埃皮鲁斯、塞萨利和部分马其顿地区）形成了最早的希腊方言。这些人将殖民现在希腊的其他地区，并吸收这些早期的民族（最著名的是在米诺斯人进入危机时征服克里特岛），而这些早期民族和印欧部落的混合将成为希腊人的民族生成过程

indicus
yes, the ancient greeks were intrusive to the land we know today as modern greece and western turkey. prior to their arrival, indigenous populations existed whom the ancient greeks called pelasgoí or pelasgians. it is not known what language they spoke or where they came from. historians conjecture that they were most likely not an indo-european speaking population as the ancient place names (rivers etc.) do not show an indo-european origin. it is thought the immigrant ancient greeks retained the old names, as is common with new entrants to a society.

是的，古希腊人对我们今天所知的现代希腊和西土耳其的土地具有侵入性。在他们到来之前，土著人群生活在这里，古希腊人称他们为pelasgoí或pelasgians。我们不知道他们说什么语言，也不知道他们来自哪里。历史学家推测，他们很可能不是讲印欧语的人群，因为古老的地名（如河流等）没有显示出印欧语的起源。人们认为，移民的古希腊人保留了这些旧名称，这在新进入社会的群体中是很常见的。

ioannis manomenidis
we have to realise what history in contrast with prehistory is. history is based and starts from the time that we have written data findings. in written data one may realise if the text is greek or not. but how can one specify the nationality withought written texts? humans (neither greeks) are not born knowing writing. writing was invented, developed and is being tought afterwards. obviously we can definately prove greeks from writting in historic period, but we can not prove, although they also existed, in prehistoric, until we will find something written and extent historical times backwards.

我们必须认识到历史与史前时期的区别。历史是基于有书面资料的时期开始的。在书面资料中，我们可以识别文本是否是希腊文。但是，在没有书面文本的情况下，如何确定国籍呢？人类（无论是希腊人还是其他人）并不是天生就会写字的。写作是被发明、发展并随后教授的。显然，我们可以通过历史时期的书写证明希腊人的存在，但我们无法证明，尽管他们在史前也存在过，直到我们找到一些书面资料并将历史推回到更早的时期。

outside of writting one may base his evidence on other matters. like human traditions and remainings, culture in grneral, which also is more difficult to document for distant periods. it is difficult to document positive ethnic identity, but it can not be excluded, unless another identity will be positively specified, which obviously is much more difficult, because every cultural element is obviously incorporated into the latter greek culture, either it was greek initially or not. and what is greek at the end? if not the whole human evolution in this area, from distant past until now?

在没有书写的情况下，人们可以基于其他方面来证明，比如人类的传统和遗留物、文化总体，这在遥远的时期同样也更难以记录。记录积极的民族身份是困难的，但并不能排除，除非有其他身份被明确证明，而这显然要难得多，因为每一种文化元素无疑都融入了后来的希腊文化中，无论它最初是否是希腊的。那么，最终什么是希腊呢？不就是这一地区从远古到现在的整个历史演变吗？

charles atkins
ah yes, it just so happens that i wrote a blog yesterday! you can read it here: ancient ancient greece
this is a very brief summary: the island of crete was inhabited by a civilization of wealthy sea traders called the minoans from c. 3000–1500 bce. located on the island is the palace of knossos, where frescoes and other works of art depict their history.

啊，是的，恰好我昨天写了一篇博客！你可以在这里阅读：《古老的古希腊》。
这是一段非常简要的总结：克里特岛上曾经栖息着一个富裕的海上贸易文明，称为米诺斯文明，存在于公元前3000年至1500年之间。岛上有克诺索斯宫殿，那里壁画和其他艺术作品描绘了他们的历史。

after a devastating tidal wave, the mainland mycenaeans managed to conquer the minoans. the mycenaeans built palaces, and during the dark ages, c. 1200–800 bce, they battled the trojans but were conquered by the dorians. this started the archaic period (c. 800–600 bce) when the poleis were established.

在经过一次毁灭性的海啸后，希腊大陆的迈锡尼人成功征服了米诺斯人。迈锡尼人建立了宫殿，在黑暗时代（公元前1200年至800年）期间，他们与特洛伊人展开战斗，但最终被多利人征服。这标志着古风时期（公元前800年至600年）的开始，城邦逐渐建立。

karen carr
yes, there were people living in greece before the greeks arrived. they didn’t write, so we don’t know what they called themselves. the first pre-greek people probably came to greece as fishermen and sailors, following the eastern mediterranean coast and then sailing or paddling from island to island. there were certainly modern humans living in greece by around 38,000 bce, that is to say, not so long after the first humans left africa.

是的，希腊人在到达之前就有人在希腊生活。他们不会写字，所以我们不知道他们自称什么。第一批前希腊人可能作为渔民和水手来到希腊，沿着东地中海沿岸航行，然后从岛屿间划船或航行。据说在公元前38,000年左右，现代人类已经在希腊生活，也就是说，这离第一批人类离开非洲的时间并不久。

many of these first people lived in caves along the seashore, and they probably lived mainly on fish and seafood like clams, mussels, octopus, shrimp, and squid, as well as gathering wild figs, berries, nuts, and so on. others (as at franchthi cave) lived further inland and hunted wild deer and donkeys. by about 7500 bce they seem to have been deep sea fishing for tuna.

这些早期的人大多住在沿海的洞穴里，他们主要以鱼和海鲜为生，如蛤蜊、贻贝、章鱼、虾和鱿鱼，同时也采集野生无花果、浆果、坚果等食物。还有一些人（如在弗朗希提洞穴）生活在更内陆的地方，猎捕野鹿和驴。，狩猎野鹿和驴子。到公元前7500年左右，他们似乎已经开始深海捕捞金枪鱼。

around 7000 bce, apparently new people arrived from west asia (the middle east) who were farmers, and they brought their wheat and barley seeds with them, and domesticated sheep and goats, pigs, and cattle. soon most greeks were farming as well as fishing, living in villages in small huts with thatched roofs, with wooden palisades around them.

大约在公元前7000年，显然有新的农民从西亚（中东）到达，他们带来了小麦和大麦种子以及驯养的羊、山羊、猪和牛。很快大多数希腊人也开始农业和捕鱼，住在有茅草屋顶的小村庄里，周围有木栅栏。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

about 3000 bce, these people learned to use bronze, probably from trade with west asian people who invented bronze. their towns got bigger, with stone walls and stone houses with tile roofs. but around 2100 bce, the greeks invaded and took over, probably because they had horses and the local people didn’t. a severe drought affecting the entire area about this time (ending the old kingdom in egypt) probably also played a part.

大约在公元前3000年，这些人学会了使用青铜，可能是通过与发明青铜的西亚人进行贸易。他们的城镇逐渐变大，开始有石墙和瓦顶的石房子。但在公元前2100年左右，希腊人入侵并占领了这些地区，可能是因为他们拥有马匹，而当地人没有。大约这个时候，影响整个地区的一场严重干旱（结束了埃及的古王国）也可能起了一定的作用。

the greeks brought their language with them, but they also took over a few words of the pre-greek language: “thalassa” for ocean, “hyakinthos” for hyacinth flowers, etc.

希腊人带来了他们的语言，但他们也吸收了一些前希腊语言的词汇，例如“thalassa”意为海洋，“hyakinthos”意为风信子花等。

assistant
yes, before the ancient greeks, several prehistoric cultures inhabited the region that is now modern greece. among the most notable are:

在古希腊之前，多个史前文化居住在现在的希腊地区。其中最著名的包括：

the minoans: this civilization flourished on the island of crete from approximately 3000 to 1450 bce. the minoans are known for their advanced architecture, including the palace at knossos, as well as their art and trade networks.

米诺斯文明：这个文明大约在公元前3000年至1450年间在克里特岛繁荣发展。米诺斯人以其先进的建筑而闻名，包括克诺索斯宫殿，以及他们的艺术和贸易网络。

the mycenaeans: following the minoans, the mycenaean civilization emerged around 1600 bce and lasted until about 1100 bce. they were known for their fortified palace complexes, such as those at mycenae and tiryns, and for their contributions to greek mythology and epic poetry, including the stories of the trojan war.

迈锡尼文明：继米诺斯文明之后，迈锡尼文明大约在公元前1600年出现，并持续到公元前1100年。他们以其坚固的宫殿建筑群而著称，例如迈锡尼和提林斯，并为希腊神话和史诗诗歌做出了贡献，包括特洛伊战争的故事。

neolithic cultures: prior to these civilizations, various neolithic cultures existed in greece, with evidence of agricultural communities dating back to around 7000 bce. these early societies laid the groundwork for later developments in greek civilization.
these cultures significantly influenced the development of ancient greek civilization, which began to emerge around the 8th century bce.

新石器时代文化：在这些文明之前，希腊地区存在着多种新石器时代文化，农业社区的证据可追溯到公元前7000年左右。这些早期社会为后来的希腊文明发展奠定了基础。
这些文化对古希腊文明的发展产生了重要影响，古希腊文明大约在公元前8世纪开始显现。